NotMe wrote:
> <Matt Probert> wrote in message
> news:48ca6ca3.15428578@news.freenetname.co.uk...
> | The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
> | writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
> | the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
> | nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
> | to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
> | fail to pay any of the debt.
> |
> | Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
> | to anyone who has ever tried it. What about naming and shaming? How do
> | you feel about the morality of publishing their name and photograph
> | (images copyright me, by the way) along with a caption describing how
> | they didn't pay for their work?
> |
> | Matt Probert Photography
> | http://www.matt-probert.co.uk
>
> My bad debit for last year was $50 and that only because I just didn't want
> to be bothered.
>
> Way back when I'd stick a minor bit of code that was very small and not
> noticeable. It was 'mission' critical to the operation of the software. If
> I was paid I'd go back into the application and fix it. If not (especially
> if I was locked out) the code would delete then replace itself with a dummy
> code that did not work.

I'd never do that, and I'd be seriously worried about the legal
ramifications of building in deliberate backdoors or hacks into systems
we've released. Morally, I think it's no better than the people stealing
the product (or not paying for the service) in the first place. I hope
that my clients respect me enough to never imagine I'd do such a thing
(I wouldn't), even if they themselves have issues with paying from time
to time.



--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

SpaceGirl <nothespacegirlspam@subhuman.net> wrote:

> NotMe wrote:

[Timebomb in code]

> I'd never do that, and I'd be seriously worried about the legal
> ramifications of building in deliberate backdoors or hacks into
> systems we've released.

Yup, I would *never* release code timebombs. One might lose a customer
because of a bug in it, or worse.


> Morally, I think it's no better than the
> people stealing the product (or not paying for the service) in the
> first place. I hope that my clients respect me enough to never imagine
> I'd do such a thing (I wouldn't), even if they themselves have issues
> with paying from time to time.

Exactly.

--
John Bokma http://johnbokma.com/

AISE/AWW/SEO/web development forum: http://seo-expert-wiki.com/

John Bokma wrote:
> SpaceGirl <nothespacegirlspam@subhuman.net> wrote:
>
>> NotMe wrote:
>
> [Timebomb in code]
>
>> I'd never do that, and I'd be seriously worried about the legal
>> ramifications of building in deliberate backdoors or hacks into
>> systems we've released.
>
> Yup, I would *never* release code timebombs. One might lose a customer
> because of a bug in it, or worse.
>

What if he was sick and in hospital for a few weeks? What if there was
some unfortunate accident? What if he accidentally forgot to remove the
code etc etc... horrible. If a contract did that to me, even if
accidentally, I'd be speaking to my lawyers.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

"Jerry Stuckle"

| You're lucky. Here in the U.S., people have been sued for such actions
| and lost.

The issue was specifically addressed in our contacts. The contract and the
processes have never been successfully challenged.

It's a moot question as DMCA covers the situation quite nicely.

Like I said bad debt was $50 last year and zero this year.

NotMe wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"
>
> | You're lucky. Here in the U.S., people have been sued for such actions
> | and lost.
>
> The issue was specifically addressed in our contacts. The contract and the
> processes have never been successfully challenged.
>
> It's a moot question as DMCA covers the situation quite nicely.
>
> Like I said bad debt was $50 last year and zero this year.
>
>
>
>
>

That's what the people who lost their cases said. And the amounts can
go well beyond the small amount they owe you.

And, as others have said - it's grossly unethical.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Matt Probert wrote:

>The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
>writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
>the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
>nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
>to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
>fail to pay any of the debt.

The answer is measurable milestones and partial payments. As you
complete each milestone, ask for a partial payment appropriate to
how much work it took. Don't let yourself get into a situation
where someone owes you a lot of money for work you alrady did,
and don't let yourself get into a situation where you ows someone
a lot of money for a payment they already made.

>Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
>to anyone who has ever tried it.

That's only if you do it yourself. Sell the debt to a collection
agency and let them try to collect. You will only get pennies on
the dollar, but that's better than nothing.

>What about naming and shaming? How do you feel about the morality
>of publishing their name and photograph (images copyright me, by
>the way) along with a caption describing how they didn't pay for
>their work?

Do that enough times and someone will sue you for defamation.
Even if you win, it will be a royal pain to deal with.



--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

"Jerry Stuckle"

| > | You're lucky. Here in the U.S., people have been sued for such
actions and lost.
| >
| > The issue was specifically addressed in our contacts. The contract and
the processes have never been successfully challenged.
| >
| > It's a moot question as DMCA covers the situation quite nicely.
| >
| > Like I said bad debt was $50 last year and zero this year.
| >
|
| That's what the people who lost their cases said. And the amounts can
| go well beyond the small amount they owe you.

Perhaps we have more diligent lawyers?

| And, as others have said - it's grossly unethical.

As to unethical our contracts state clearly that the user license does not
transfer until payment is received in full. There's more boiler plate but
that's the essence.

The process is not unlike what Adobe and others do with demo software. You
get to review in the real world on your tuff for a set period. At which
point you don't pay and things stop working.

Regardless we have other processes in place that make the need for that
methodology moot.

NotMe wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"
>
> | > | You're lucky. Here in the U.S., people have been sued for such
> actions and lost.
> | >
> | > The issue was specifically addressed in our contacts. The contract and
> the processes have never been successfully challenged.
> | >
> | > It's a moot question as DMCA covers the situation quite nicely.
> | >
> | > Like I said bad debt was $50 last year and zero this year.
> | >
> |
> | That's what the people who lost their cases said. And the amounts can
> | go well beyond the small amount they owe you.
>
> Perhaps we have more diligent lawyers?
>

That's what they thought. But their opponents had better lawyers.

> | And, as others have said - it's grossly unethical.
>
> As to unethical our contracts state clearly that the user license does not
> transfer until payment is received in full. There's more boiler plate but
> that's the essence.
>
> The process is not unlike what Adobe and others do with demo software. You
> get to review in the real world on your tuff for a set period. At which
> point you don't pay and things stop working.
>
> Regardless we have other processes in place that make the need for that
> methodology moot.
>
>

Which does not address the ethical issue. No way would I ever hire
someone with those ethics.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Guy Macon <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote:

>The answer is measurable milestones and partial payments. As you
>complete each milestone, ask for a partial payment appropriate to
>how much work it took. Don't let yourself get into a situation
>where someone owes you a lot of money for work you alrady did,
>and don't let yourself get into a situation where you ows someone
>a lot of money for a payment they already made.

Typo. Should be: "Don't let yourself get into a situation
where someone owes you a lot of money for work you already
did, and don't let yourself get into a situation where you
owe someone a lot of work for a payment they already made."

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

On Sep 13, 6:08-pm, Guy Macon <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote:
> Sell the debt to a collection agency and let them try to collect. -You will only get pennies on
> the dollar, but that's better than nothing.
>

Guy is absolutely correct. A Collection Agency will take care of
"naming and shaming" in the most legal way it can be done -- i.e.
placing the info on their credit rating.

Plus the collection agency knows how to hound them in a legal way, or
at least they will take on the risk of hounding them. And most tech
geeks don't have the personality necessary to do this sort of job,
whereas the professional collectors get a buzz from doing it.