NotMe wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"
>
> | > | You're lucky. Here in the U.S., people have been sued for such
> actions and lost.
> | >
> | > The issue was specifically addressed in our contacts. The contract and
> the processes have never been successfully challenged.
> | >
> | > It's a moot question as DMCA covers the situation quite nicely.
> | >
> | > Like I said bad debt was $50 last year and zero this year.
> | >
> |
> | That's what the people who lost their cases said. And the amounts can
> | go well beyond the small amount they owe you.
>
> Perhaps we have more diligent lawyers?
>
> | And, as others have said - it's grossly unethical.
>
> As to unethical our contracts state clearly that the user license does not
> transfer until payment is received in full. There's more boiler plate but
> that's the essence.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

> The process is not unlike what Adobe and others do with demo software. You
> get to review in the real world on your tuff for a set period. At which
> point you don't pay and things stop working.

Apart from the Adobe trail software clearly tells you every time you
start it up how many days access you have left, and upon expiring tells
you what to do next. I have no problem with this as there is nothing
being hidden from the user. The issue I'd have is in *hiding* expiration
code, or backdoors in code, that would shut down a product.

I would certainly never do business with you.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

On 14 Sep 2008, SpaceGirl barged into alt.www.webmaster and uttered:

> Two wrongs don't make a right.

True - but three rights make a left. :-0

> Apart from the Adobe trail software clearly tells you every time you
> start it up how many days access you have left, and upon expiring
> tells you what to do next. I have no problem with this as there is
> nothing being hidden from the user. The issue I'd have is in *hiding*
> expiration code, or backdoors in code, that would shut down a product.

Absolutely. As long as such things are made quite clear initially, there
is nothing unethical about it. However, arbitrarily adding a backdoor
expiration code without first spec'ing it up front is pretty darn sleazy,
IMHO.

- M

--
# http://www.nofccainway.com
# nofccainway@_your_clothes_nofccainway.com
# remove _your_clothes_ when emailing me

# d o n ' t b e l i e v e e v e r y t h i n g y o u t h i n k

Matt-the-Hoople wrote:
> On 14 Sep 2008, SpaceGirl barged into alt.www.webmaster and uttered:
>
>> Two wrongs don't make a right.
>
> True - but three rights make a left. :-0
>
>> Apart from the Adobe trail software clearly tells you every time you
>> start it up how many days access you have left, and upon expiring
>> tells you what to do next. I have no problem with this as there is
>> nothing being hidden from the user. The issue I'd have is in *hiding*
>> expiration code, or backdoors in code, that would shut down a product.
>
> Absolutely. As long as such things are made quite clear initially, there
> is nothing unethical about it. However, arbitrarily adding a backdoor
> expiration code without first spec'ing it up front is pretty darn sleazy,
> IMHO.
>
> - M
>

I wonder how many clients (if any at all) would ever sign a contract
that had that clause...


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

"Jerry Stuckle"

| Which does not address the ethical issue. No way would I ever hire
| someone with those ethics.

The terms and conditions are clearly stated. The client is under no
obligation to hire our firm and they are perfectly able to go down the road
to another designer.

We don't get many clients that object to the terms. Those that make more
than a token objection we don't accept as clients. Period. We're polite
about the refusal but ...

Seems to work as we have very little ($50 last year and zero so far this
year) bad debt and no slow pay.

The OP complained about no pay and asked how others handled the problem. I
responded with works for us. Differences of opinions are what make for horse
races.

Interesting aside most of the clients we do pass under those circumstances
end up screwing over the next designer in some way. Never gave this any
though but could be the T&C are an effective litmus test for those, that in
their mental business plan, have an propensity to be problem clients.

Some other things we do or accurately don't do:

Don't work on spec

Don't start a project without a hard copy contract/agreement and a
substantial deposit in hand. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Don't copy/duplicate or work on other designers work product unless the
client can provide documentation that the original designer has granted that
permission under their copyright.

Don't release final files until the work product has been approved in hard
copy by the client and the final payment received. Again NO EXCEPTIONS.

This applies to ALL projects. Paying or pro bono and especially work done
for friends and family.

Additionally any pro bono/family work if the 'client' does not treat the
project with the respect it deserves we resign the project. As with paying
clients there is a heads up, things don't change and we resign. (This is
likewise covered in our contacts)

Only takes folk one trip down that path to get religion.

These are policies we developed early on (back in the days of punch cards)
and have adhered to even during rough times. I've no doubt we've lost
business and income as a result but in the long haul the no nonsense world
view has paid off handsomely.

Circumstances beyond the clients' control are another matter. As example we
are providing design services and hosting for clients impacted by natural
disasters without charge. One of the key reasons we are able to do this is
that we are paid for our work in a timely manner.

Side benefit we don't have to over book or even tightly book our studio
time. As such, we have a solid reputation for delivering on time and as
agreed. We are likewise equally well known for no pay, no delivery.

As the majority of our business comes from client referrals we do no
advertising, no cold calls and little promotion.

I plan to keep it that way.

NotMe wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"
>
> | Which does not address the ethical issue. No way would I ever hire
> | someone with those ethics.
>
> The terms and conditions are clearly stated. The client is under no
> obligation to hire our firm and they are perfectly able to go down the road
> to another designer.
>
> We don't get many clients that object to the terms. Those that make more
> than a token objection we don't accept as clients. Period. We're polite
> about the refusal but ...
>
> Seems to work as we have very little ($50 last year and zero so far this
> year) bad debt and no slow pay.
>
> The OP complained about no pay and asked how others handled the problem. I
> responded with works for us. Differences of opinions are what make for horse
> races.
>
> Interesting aside most of the clients we do pass under those circumstances
> end up screwing over the next designer in some way. Never gave this any
> though but could be the T&C are an effective litmus test for those, that in
> their mental business plan, have an propensity to be problem clients.
>
> Some other things we do or accurately don't do:
>
> Don't work on spec
>
> Don't start a project without a hard copy contract/agreement and a
> substantial deposit in hand. NO EXCEPTIONS.
>
> Don't copy/duplicate or work on other designers work product unless the
> client can provide documentation that the original designer has granted that
> permission under their copyright.
>
> Don't release final files until the work product has been approved in hard
> copy by the client and the final payment received. Again NO EXCEPTIONS.
>
> This applies to ALL projects. Paying or pro bono and especially work done
> for friends and family.
>
> Additionally any pro bono/family work if the 'client' does not treat the
> project with the respect it deserves we resign the project. As with paying
> clients there is a heads up, things don't change and we resign. (This is
> likewise covered in our contacts)
>
> Only takes folk one trip down that path to get religion.
>
> These are policies we developed early on (back in the days of punch cards)
> and have adhered to even during rough times. I've no doubt we've lost
> business and income as a result but in the long haul the no nonsense world
> view has paid off handsomely.
>
> Circumstances beyond the clients' control are another matter. As example we
> are providing design services and hosting for clients impacted by natural
> disasters without charge. One of the key reasons we are able to do this is
> that we are paid for our work in a timely manner.
>
> Side benefit we don't have to over book or even tightly book our studio
> time. As such, we have a solid reputation for delivering on time and as
> agreed. We are likewise equally well known for no pay, no delivery.
>
> As the majority of our business comes from client referrals we do no
> advertising, no cold calls and little promotion.
>
> I plan to keep it that way.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

As I said. I hope you never get sued. The limits to what they can (and
have) recover is much more than that of the contract. Your exposure to
such a timebomb is almost unlimited.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

"NotMe" <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> "Jerry Stuckle"
>
>| Which does not address the ethical issue. No way would I ever hire
>| someone with those ethics.
>
> The terms and conditions are clearly stated.

[snip]

The ethical issue (unless I misunderstand) refers to deliver code that has
on purpose a hidden time bomb. And no, I don't mean software with a trial
period.

--
John Bokma http://johnbokma.com/

AISE/AWW/SEO/web development forum: http://seo-expert-wiki.com/

"Jerry Stuckle"
|
| As I said. I hope you never get sued. The limits to what they can (and
| have) recover is much more than that of the contract. Your exposure to
| such a timebomb is almost unlimited.

My legal folk don't agree. So far, on all counts, they have been 100%
right.

And since the T&C are parrallelled by the software industry I feel confident
in their assessment.

"SpaceGirl" <nothespacegirlspam@subhuman.net> wrote in message
news:6j557dF1e5a1U1@mid.individual.net...
| Matt-the-Hoople wrote:
| > On 14 Sep 2008, SpaceGirl barged into alt.www.webmaster and uttered:
| >
| >> Two wrongs don't make a right.
| >
| > True - but three rights make a left. :-0
| >
| >> Apart from the Adobe trail software clearly tells you every time you
| >> start it up how many days access you have left, and upon expiring
| >> tells you what to do next. I have no problem with this as there is
| >> nothing being hidden from the user. The issue I'd have is in *hiding*
| >> expiration code, or backdoors in code, that would shut down a product.
| >
| > Absolutely. As long as such things are made quite clear initially,
there
| > is nothing unethical about it. However, arbitrarily adding a backdoor
| > expiration code without first spec'ing it up front is pretty darn
sleazy,
| > IMHO.
| >
| > - M
| >
|
| I wonder how many clients (if any at all) would ever sign a contract
| that had that clause...
|

All do, otherwise we don't accept them as clients.

Part of the process is salesmanship: the client is sold on what we deliver,
how we deliver and the terms of that delivery.

FWIW years back I sold sand to the Saudis (not a joke)

Like I said no one is twisting any arms. The door is that way: it swings
open to come in and swings just as wide to leave.

Those clients we passed on for that reason have proven, over time, to be the
very ones we would not have wanted as clients anyway. Can I say absolutely
that all we passed on are that way? No? But I can say those we passed on
unfairly we have not missed.

We also pass on clients that want spec work and work for hire. We will sell
all rights license (not the copyrights) but have yet to find a client that
wanted to spend the money as there are more effective ways to get where they
need. We show them those options as part of our presentation. Often the
result is a better product at a lower real world cost than they had
originally budgeted.

As to Adobe software stating how may days you have left that's a nag screen
to make you buy. I'm told it has no bearing on the TOU. A point that's
covered tangentially in the text of most of the TOU.

NotMe wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"
> |
> | As I said. I hope you never get sued. The limits to what they can (and
> | have) recover is much more than that of the contract. Your exposure to
> | such a timebomb is almost unlimited.
>
> My legal folk don't agree. So far, on all counts, they have been 100%
> right.
>
> And since the T&C are parrallelled by the software industry I feel confident
> in their assessment.
>
>
>

I'd suggest you get a different attorney. Your terms have no parallels
in the software industry, and court cases have proven your attorneys wrong.

But hey - it's you who will be standing in the bread line, not me (or
your attorney).

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Point your customers site over to a competitors.