The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
fail to pay any of the debt.

Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
to anyone who has ever tried it. What about naming and shaming? How do
you feel about the morality of publishing their name and photograph
(images copyright me, by the way) along with a caption describing how
they didn't pay for their work?

Matt Probert Photography
http://www.matt-probert.co.uk

Matt Probert wrote:
> The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
> writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
> the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
> nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
> to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
> fail to pay any of the debt.
>
> Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
> to anyone who has ever tried it. What about naming and shaming? How do
> you feel about the morality of publishing their name and photograph
> (images copyright me, by the way) along with a caption describing how
> they didn't pay for their work?
>
> Matt Probert Photography
> http://www.matt-probert.co.uk

What I usually do is replace their homepage with a default notice saying it
has been taken offline because they repeatedly failed to pay for it. The
only link I include in the default page is a mailto pointing to their
address and a message encouraging disappointed site visitors to email them
asking them to pay up so that the site may be reinstated.

Of course, I give them plenty of opportunity to pay up first. This is a last
resort measure.
I find this works wonders, especially if they've already launched an
advertising campaign, or started distributing stationery with their URL on
it.

Of course, once they've paid up, I remove them from my clients list and
refuse to have any further dealings with them, or at the very least insist
that they pay for all future work in advance.

(used to be) Fat Sam wrote:

> What I usually do is replace their homepage with a default notice saying it
> has been taken offline because they repeatedly failed to pay for it. The
> only link I include in the default page is a mailto pointing to their
> address and a message encouraging disappointed site visitors to email them
> asking them to pay up so that the site may be reinstated.
>
> Of course, I give them plenty of opportunity to pay up first. This is a last
> resort measure.
> I find this works wonders, especially if they've already launched an
> advertising campaign, or started distributing stationery with their URL on
> it.
>
> Of course, once they've paid up, I remove them from my clients list and
> refuse to have any further dealings with them, or at the very least insist
> that they pay for all future work in advance.
>
>

This is pretty much what we'd do too. The contract the client signs when
working with us clearly states that we own all of the materials hosted
on our servers until they have made full payment. Thankfully it's never
got that far, but we have had to threaten once or twice in the past.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

On 12 Sep 2008, Matt Probert barged into alt.www.webmaster and uttered:

> The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
> writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
> the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
> nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
> to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
> fail to pay any of the debt.
>
> Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
> to anyone who has ever tried it. What about naming and shaming? How do
> you feel about the morality of publishing their name and photograph
> (images copyright me, by the way) along with a caption describing how
> they didn't pay for their work?

I don't know, Matt - seems to me that doing something like that will
only serve to fuel your angst. Sure, you'll feel better initially for
having done it, but every time you look at your handiwork down the line,
you will be experience the anger and frustration all over again.

Once upon a time I had a 'BallBags-R-Us' page for folks who had
committed what I perceived to be a wrong against me. Every time I
looked at the page I had a few choice epithets to hurl at each name on
the page. At some point I realized that it really was hurting me more
than any of them, so I p00ted the page into oblivion and felt much
better for having done so.

just my two cents.

cheers

- M



--
# http://www.nofccainway.com
# nofccainway@_your_clothes_nofccainway.com
# remove _your_clothes_ when emailing me

# d o n ' t b e l i e v e e v e r y t h i n g y o u t h i n k

matt,
in my HVAC/R business i eat at least $10,000 a year in bad debt (and thats
on a good year) and have grown to accept is as the cost of doing business.
people who dont pay usually dont because they dont have the money and while
this certainly doesnt make it right on any level, you just cannot get blood
from a turnip and wasting a lot of time chasing shadows is time that could
be better spent making money from customers who DO pay. do what i
do....hand it over to a collection agency (they dont get paid unless they
collect) and walk away from it hoping for the best.

--
Nathan In Montana
http://ConcealedCarryForum.com
http://1911talk.com
http://HiPowerTalk.com
http://GlockCarry.com
http://P7talk.com
http://PPStalk.com
..
<Matt Probert> wrote in message
news:48ca6ca3.15428578@news.freenetname.co.uk...
> The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
> writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
> the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
> nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
> to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
> fail to pay any of the debt.
>
> Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
> to anyone who has ever tried it. What about naming and shaming? How do
> you feel about the morality of publishing their name and photograph
> (images copyright me, by the way) along with a caption describing how
> they didn't pay for their work?
>
> Matt Probert Photography
> http://www.matt-probert.co.uk
>
>

SpaceGirl wrote:
> (used to be) Fat Sam wrote:
>
>> What I usually do is replace their homepage with a default notice
>> saying it has been taken offline because they repeatedly failed to
>> pay for it. The only link I include in the default page is a mailto
>> pointing to their address and a message encouraging disappointed
>> site visitors to email them asking them to pay up so that the site
>> may be reinstated. Of course, I give them plenty of opportunity to pay up
>> first. This
>> is a last resort measure.
>> I find this works wonders, especially if they've already launched an
>> advertising campaign, or started distributing stationery with their
>> URL on it.
>>
>> Of course, once they've paid up, I remove them from my clients list
>> and refuse to have any further dealings with them, or at the very
>> least insist that they pay for all future work in advance.
>>
>>
>
> This is pretty much what we'd do too. The contract the client signs
> when working with us clearly states that we own all of the materials
> hosted on our servers until they have made full payment. Thankfully
> it's never got that far, but we have had to threaten once or twice in
> the past.

I've had to do it twice, and on both occasions I was paid within 3 days of
it going online.
The second time, I was paid by cheque, so I left the holding page in place
until the cheque cleared.

Like yourself, I've had to threaten it a few times to persuade a client to
pay.

In my experience, small businesses that are set up as sole traders and
partnerships are the best at paying promptly.
Big corporations are terrible at paying promtly. They seem to keep
forgetting, but pay up when prompted a few times.
The absolute worst in my experience are small limited companies. The sort
where all the company directors are members of the same family, fronted by
some wide-boy who thinks he's running a multinational corporation, when in
reality he's running a washing machine repair company from a rented lockup
unit on a trading and business estate.
Those sort seem to feel they have some sort of exemption from having to pay
anyone who's operating a smaller business than their own.
These are the ones who the default holding page works best with.

Matt Probert <Matt Probert> wrote in message:
48ca6ca3.15428578@news.freenetname.co.uk,

> The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
> writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
> the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
> nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
> to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
> fail to pay any of the debt.
>
> Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
> to anyone who has ever tried it. What about naming and shaming? How do
> you feel about the morality of publishing their name and photograph
> (images copyright me, by the way) along with a caption describing how
> they didn't pay for their work?


I wasn't in business long before I realized that I was giving refunds to
two kinds of people -- honest people who had a problem that wasn't
resolved satisfactorily and people who routinely cheat others out of
money whenever they think they can get away with it. I understood that
for those people there is no down side for their dishonesty. That they
could tell any outrageous lie they wanted to tell to PayPal or their
credit card, if they thought it would get them a refund or a chargeback.
And it always worked for them because I was totally powerless, even when
I had the truth on my side and could prove it.

So I decided to make some consequences for those people:

http://www.cyber-crooks.com/

I don't use this for everyone who cheats me, but as I say on the site:
"I expect a small percentage of people will copy my DVDs and then make
up some BS excuse to return them for a refund--something they could
never get away with in a "brick and mortar" store. I do what I can to
avoid it, but I have to accept at least some of that as part of the cost
of doing business online. But every once in a while I deal with someone
who so dishonest and so brazen about it that their actions are truly
breathtaking. This web site is dedicated to some of those people."

Since I started using this web site it has saved me a lot of money,
because when I realize that I am dealing with a scammer I show them the
web page and promise them that if they try to cheat me their name and
address will soon be on it along with the details of their scamming, and
that within a couple of weeks the web site will come up in first place
whenever anyone runs a search on their name. It almost always stops
people who think they are going to cheat me like they've done to many
others.

The first name on the site is one that I just added a week ago and it's
not indexed by Google yet, but the other names have been indexed and so
when I use this threat people can actually verify that I can make good
on my threats.

Actually the other names on the site right now aren't even real. I
changed them after they were up for about a year, but the incidents I
describe are real. Other names and incidents have been on the site for a
while and then removed after they were taught a lesson about how there
can be consequences when they cheat people -- especially if the person
they are trying to cheat is a webmaster. :-)

I see where Matt-the-Hoople talked about a similar site he used to have,
but that he took it down because it just reminded him of the problems he
had with those people. Well, my site doesn't work that way for me. When
I add someone to my site it's a way for me to let go of the situation
and move on. I feel like however much money they stole from me, putting
their names on the web site is sufficient payback and it should make
those people think twice about cheating someone else.

I should also point out that people who make a habit of cheating others
typically react very badly to having their misdeeds documented on a web
site. They try to get the site taken down, they try to put me out of
business, they file complaints with the Better Business Bureau, and they
sometimes threaten me with legal action. But fortunately in the US we
have a little thing called free speech, and so as long as I stick to the
truth they can't do anything about it.

--
Red

(Matt Probert) wrote:

> The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
> writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
> the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
> nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
> to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
> fail to pay any of the debt.
>
> Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
> to anyone who has ever tried it.

Tried and done. It took a long time, and I got about 2/3rd of the money.

> What about naming and shaming? How do

I've threatened customers who gave me a hard time with legal actions
(explained that I had experience with it, and the first thing that I would
do was to make stop them using my software). Worked perfectly.

At another occasion I threatened them with naming & shaming. Worked
miracles. The good thing was that when you used Google, you already found
my resume, describing the projects I had done for that company, at the 3rd
or 2nd place :-). (The owner first tried to claim that he was not
responsible, because the person on his side I worked with got sometime
after the project a major depression; he claimed that I had dealt with a
mentally ill worker, and hence, he wasn't going to pay me....)

In short, I've had this problem 3 times: once I took legal actions, once I
threatened with legal actions, and third I threatened with naming &
shaming.

I am glad this is rare though, I really don't understand why people go
through so much trouble not to pay.


--
John Bokma http://johnbokma.com/

AISE/AWW/SEO/web development forum: http://seo-expert-wiki.com/

<Matt Probert> wrote in message
news:48ca6ca3.15428578@news.freenetname.co.uk...
| The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
| writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
| the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
| nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
| to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
| fail to pay any of the debt.
|
| Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
| to anyone who has ever tried it. What about naming and shaming? How do
| you feel about the morality of publishing their name and photograph
| (images copyright me, by the way) along with a caption describing how
| they didn't pay for their work?
|
| Matt Probert Photography
| http://www.matt-probert.co.uk

My bad debit for last year was $50 and that only because I just didn't want
to be bothered.

Way back when I'd stick a minor bit of code that was very small and not
noticeable. It was 'mission' critical to the operation of the software. If
I was paid I'd go back into the application and fix it. If not (especially
if I was locked out) the code would delete then replace itself with a dummy
code that did not work.

Under the current program I don't need to do that much.

BTW I NEVER sell my work product I only license it's use.

NotMe wrote:
> <Matt Probert> wrote in message
> news:48ca6ca3.15428578@news.freenetname.co.uk...
> | The industry doesn't matter, but say you agree a job and price, in
> | writing with a client. You carry out your side of the deal, and supply
> | the goods. But they then fail to pay. You send them a polite reminder,
> | nothing. You meet with them and they accept that the job was completed
> | to their satisfaction, and in full, and offer to pay. And yet still
> | fail to pay any of the debt.
> |
> | Setting aside legal action to reclaim the debt, for reasons apparent
> | to anyone who has ever tried it. What about naming and shaming? How do
> | you feel about the morality of publishing their name and photograph
> | (images copyright me, by the way) along with a caption describing how
> | they didn't pay for their work?
> |
> | Matt Probert Photography
> | http://www.matt-probert.co.uk
>
> My bad debit for last year was $50 and that only because I just didn't want
> to be bothered.
>
> Way back when I'd stick a minor bit of code that was very small and not
> noticeable. It was 'mission' critical to the operation of the software. If
> I was paid I'd go back into the application and fix it. If not (especially
> if I was locked out) the code would delete then replace itself with a dummy
> code that did not work.
>
> Under the current program I don't need to do that much.
>
> BTW I NEVER sell my work product I only license it's use.
>
>
>

You're lucky. Here in the U.S., people have been sued for such actions
and lost.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================